The Secular Case Against Abortion by Jennifer Roth It seems that I was premature in proclaiming that Mr. Carrier and I had reached agreement on a number of key issues. I had hoped to focus attention on the question of the definition of a person, since I believed (and still believe) that to be the […]

Second Rebuttal Jennifer Roth Before getting to the main subjects of dispute which remain between us, let me quickly summarize the surprising number of points on which Mr. Carrier and I seem to agree. We agree that both the mother and father of a child have obligations toward that child. (Assuming that a "child" is […]

First Rebuttal Jennifer Roth In his opening statement, Mr. Carrier identified two sources of disagreement on moral issues: disputes over facts, and disputes over values. I agree with his assessment; however, some disputes do not lend themselves to easy categorization. Take, for example, the question of when a human individual comes into existence. The answer […]

A Secular Case Against Abortion By Jennifer Roth Introduction First of all, I’d like to thank Richard Carrier for agreeing to this debate, and the Internet Infidels for sponsoring it. I hope to find that this format will allow us to go beyond the soundbites and emotionalism that characterize all too many discussions of abortion. […]

Meet the Debators The topic for this debate is: Is There a Secular Case Against Abortion? Arguing For A Secular Case Against Abortion is Jennifer Roth Jennifer Roth works as a system administrator for the Academic Outreach divisions of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. She sits on the board of directors of the Seamless […]

Abortion is not Immoral and Should not be Illegal Closing Statement by Richard C. Carrier Conclusions on the Main Issues The present debate is about two things: what the facts are and what the universally shared values are that relate to those facts.  After all that has been said in this debate, there does not […]

Abortion is not Immoral and Should not be Illegal by Richard C. Carrier It is always refreshing debating someone who is not fanatically attached to a bizarre worldview.  We always come to enlightened agreement on many issues.  This is one of the reasons I believe secularism is the correct view–whereas theism leads to greater dispute […]

Abortion is not Immoral and Should not be Illegal by Richard C. Carrier I. Disputed Facts In Jen Roth’s first rebuttal, several factual arguments are made that I do not believe are correct.  I will address these first.  However, these factual disputes are not very major–they do not go to the heart of the debate.  […]

by Richard C. Carrier Fundamentals of Agreement and Disagreement Jen Roth has composed her case well, and I can see this debate will be of great value to everyone, not only secularists.  I will begin with the major points of fundamental agreement and disagreement between us.  Roth is quite right when she identifies the two […]

Abortion is not Immoral and Should not be Illegal by Richard C. Carrier   Introduction This opening argument against the immorality and illegality of abortion is simple, short and largely unoriginal: the arguments have all been voiced and heard a thousand times before. As will become apparent, the present argument leaves numerous fundamental assumptions as […]

About the Abortion Debate The topic for this debate is: Is There a Secular Case Against Abortion? The debaters have agreed to the following debate format: Opening statements, submitted independently of one another, 18 April, 2000 First rebuttals, submitted independently of one another, due 1 May, 2000 Second rebuttals, submitted independently of one another, due […]

On The Issue of Abortion: Abortion remains one of the more divisive moral issues in America today. The controversy over its legal and moral status rages on. Several labels have been invented to define the variety of stances available on the issue. Pro-Life is often synonymous with Anti-Abortion, and related partially to Anti-Choice. Pro-Choice is […]

Debates Is Creationism True? [Index] God or Blind Nature? Philosophers Debate the Evidence (2007) [ Index ] edited by Paul Draper Should We Believe in God? [Index] Why Be an Atheist? [Index]

Book Review: David O’Connor, God and Inscrutable Evil: In Defense of Theism and Atheism, Lanham/London, Rowman & Littlefield, 1998, pp. xiii + 273, $28.95 paper, $78.50 cloth. (To purchase the book, click on the image of the book cover to the right.)   “There is a great deal of evil in the world, much of […]

Asa and Archer: Does the Bible contain errors? David Zaitzeff   The Bible contains many passages which seem to contradict other passages. Unbelievers, skeptics and modernist Christians see these passages as evidence the Bible contains errors. Conservative or “fundamentalist” Christians respond with books on “Bible difficulties.” These books attempt to explain the contradictions. The usual […]

Young-earth "proof" #27: The oldest tree in the world is 4300 years old. 27 . What does the age of a tree have to do with the age of the earth? If, in fact, the oldest tree is 4300 years old, so what? Perhaps Dr. Hovind is impressed by the fact that such a tree […]

Young-earth "proof" #16: Topsoil takes only a few thousand years to form. The present thickness of topsoil indicates a young earth. 16. Those "scientific" creationists who trot this plum about must be delirious! Do they really believe that we should wind up with x miles of topsoil (or some such nonsense) after billions of years? […]

Youngearth "proof" #1: The sun is shrinking at 5 feet/hour which limits the earth-sun relationship to less than 5 million years. The shrinking-sun argument contains two errors. First, and by far the worst, is the assumption that if the sun is shrinking today, as might be detected over a period of years, then it has […]

Young-earth "proof" #8: At the rate many star clusters are expanding, they could not have been traveling for more than a few thousand years. Without more detail, I can only guess as to the nature of Dr. Hovind’s argument! As it is worded above, it remains something of a mystery. I believe that some creationists […]

Young-earth "proof" #22: The largest stalactites and flowstones could have formed in about 4400 years. 22. Since when is the age of the earth related to the age of a stalactite? If, in fact, a fat stalactite can form in 4400 years, so what? However, it does seems a bit suspicious that the minimum age […]

Young-earth "proof" #7: Space dust would be vacuumed out of our solar system by the Poynting-Robertson effect in a few thousand years. Since that is not the case, the earth is very young. The Poynting-Robertson effect is an effect that sunlight has on small dust particles orbiting the sun. The continuing absorption of sunlight robs […]

Young-earth "proof" #21: Given the rate of sediment transport into the ocean by the world’s rivers, the ocean basins should have a much thicker layer of sediment than they actually have. Only a small amount of sediment is on the ocean floor, indicating a few thousand years of accumulation. This embarrassing fact explains why the […]

Young-earth "proof" #9: Saturn’s rings are unstable which indicates that they are less than millions of years old. If Saturn’s rings are less than millions of years old, then what of it? That doesn’t prove that the planet is less than billions of years old. Recent study suggests that the rings are not older than […]

Young-earth "proof" #24: Given the rate of salt influx to the oceans, they should be much saltier than they are if the earth were billions of years old. 24. Dr. Hovind is assuming that salt cannot be removed from the oceans. The more sophisticated creationists, such as Melvin Cook, know better than to make that […]

Young-earth "proof" #23: The Sahara desert is expanding; it can only be a few thousand years old. 23. The present Sahara Desert really is only a few thousand years old. About 7 or 8 thousand years ago the area underwent a pronounced wet phase and portions of it were habitable parkland where cattle could be […]

Young-earth "proof" #20: The earth’s rotation is slowing down, meaning that the earth can’t be older than a few million years. 20. Presently, the earth’s rotation is slowing down 0.005 seconds per year per year (Thwaites and Awbrey, 1982, p.19). At least Dr. Hovind doesn’t use the horrendous rate of 1 second per year which […]

Young-earth "proof" #19: The size of the Mississippi River delta divided by the sediment accumulation rate gives an age of less than 30,000 years. 19. Since when does the age of the earth have anything to do with the Mississippi delta? If the Mississippi delta is, in fact, 30,000 years old, what of it? Because […]

Young-earth "proof" #18: The incredible pressure found in oil and gas wells indicates they have been there less than 15,000 years. (Presumably, the oil or gas would have escaped long before then.) 18. The incredible pressure found in oil and gas wells indicates that the oil and gas have been effectively trapped. The initial, slow […]