Will you please find me the quotation in which Josephus speaks about Jesus? Mr. R. (reading): "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it is lawful to call him a man, for he was a great doer of miracles."
Do you find a word there about Tacitus?–No.
What do you mean by saying Josephus quoted Tacitus?–I did not say so as to this passage.
I quite misunderstood you, then. I certainly believed you to imply that a quotation from Tacitus was to be found in Josephus. If Mr. Roberts says I misunderstood him I only want it distinctly recorded. Will you please give your authority for saying that Clement of Rome was born A.D.30?–I have only the authority of the ancient writers.
Of whom? Name him. (Mr. Roberts turns to a book). If you are going to quote from Eusebius I will find you the chapter. –I have the Apochryphal New Testament published by Hone.
I am afraid Hone is not an ancient writer. I want an ancient writer, not one of this century.–William Hone’s statements are based upon his researches into ancient manuscripts, and are to be accepted as credible.
William Hone’s statement is not ancient?–He is not my only authority.
Give me your other.–I give you Milner.
Is he an ancient writer? I want an ancient writer.–He is a gentleman.
Mr. R., they are all gentlemen. I am not disputing that, I want an ancient writer.–He is a gentleman who conducted his investigations in the light of ancient works in the most searching manner.
That is no categorical answer to my question. The rules of this debate say that questions must be answered categorically, and to answer me by explaining who Milner is, is not categorical. I don’t want modern writers, because they only base their statements upon something else. If you tell me you have only read modern writers, I can understand. Have you read the ancient authority? If you have not read the original writing, have you read translations from books such as are prepared from the original language? I don’t want your "Christian Evidence" mongering works of modern times. I want the original authorities. Tell, me have you any others you have taken the pains to refer to?–Not on the question of Clement’s age.
Have you in relation Barnabas?–My answer must be the same.
Hermas, Irenaeus, Mileto?–My answer must be the same in all these cases.
Justin Martyr? Do you mean to say that you have formed your judgment upon ancient matters without taking the trouble to go back to the ancient writers?–I have gone through a number of ecclesiastical histories.
What ancient ones?–Ecclesiastical histories are not ancient.
Yes, there are some?–What do you mean by "ancient"?
I am asking questions. It is your duty to answer them. I mean by "ancient" relating to the period of the writers whose names you have used.–Precisely so. I have given an answer. In some cases, I have referred to the first authorities.
Name one to whom you have referred to in relation to this discussion?–I have not referred to original documents.
Nor have I, but I have been to the best translations, and I want to know if you have taken the trouble to do that. Tell me what edition of Justin Martyr you have used?–I have already observed that I have in some cases referred to the first authorities, and others I have taken second-hand on the authority of credible gentlemen.
What do you mean by "some cases"? –I cannot be more explicit.
Have you a translation of Melito?–Having said "some cases", allow me to state the cases. There is the case of Barnabus; there is the case of Hermas; there is the case of Polycarp, of Clement, of Ignatius. You had better take my general answer, in the way I put it, viz., that I have not found it necessary to refer to original authorities for well-vouched statements.
I want an honest answer, and not a general answer which avoids it.–My answer is that. In the main my information is second-hand. I have read translations of the original authorities in the cases I have mentioned.
As you have mentioned translations, is every statement of Clement true within your knowledge?–Not recollecting the whole of them, I cannot answer. I may say in brief that I refer to them merely for a question of facts. Even an idiot can speak to facts.
Is there any one you can recollect which was not true?–I think I cannot say yes.
Can you say no?–I cannot say no at the moment.
You mean to say that in the speech I made three quarters of an hour ago, although I read Clement, you do not know whether it is true or not?–You read in so hurried and incoherent a fashion that I have a difficulty in making out what you do say.
I shall not ask any more questions. (Mr. Bradlaugh sits down.)